Frumzi Casino – generel debat (side 19)

Hello and thank you for your response. In my opinion we understand each other. Just like I said, though, I will leave the rest to the mediators, since through the investigation they can eventually provide more concrete answers to the specific questions you mentioned. I will, however, be here if you want to reach out here on the forum, of course.

If you don't mind a question, does this casino provide self-exclusion through the live chat? I'm asking because such an option is not often seen, and since the casino provides limited responsible options, as far as I can conclude from its review, I guess it may help others stay a bit safer.

Hello, and thank you for asking this because this is actually directly relevant to my complaint.

As far as I could see, Frumzi did not provide me with a button or account-setting option that allowed me to simply close my account or activate self-exclusion myself through the website.

That is exactly why I contacted Live Chat and asked for my account to be closed.

If there is no visible account-closure/self-exclusion option available to the player inside the account, then practically I had to contact the casino through one of its support channels. I chose Live Chat.

This is also why Frumzi's later response to my dispute is so important. They told me:

"we couldn't locate any requests for account closure sent to us via email."

But my request was not made by email. It was made through Live Chat.

My recollection is that the Live Chat representative asked me why I wanted to close the account, and I responded that there were not enough games and that I did not want to lose any more money.

I want to distinguish this carefully from a formal self-exclusion request. I am not claiming that I specifically used the words "self-exclusion" or "gambling addiction" unless the historical transcript proves otherwise. I am saying that I asked Live Chat to close my account, explained my reason, and nevertheless the account remained accessible.

This is exactly why I am currently demanding that Frumzi provide my historical Live Chat transcript. The transcript should show exactly what I requested, what reason I gave, what the representative told me and what happened afterward.

Frumzi has still not provided that historical transcript despite my repeated requests.

There is another reason I think your question about responsible-gambling options is important.

If a player who wants to stop using the casino cannot find a direct closure/self-exclusion control in the account interface, the player has to rely on Support/Live Chat/email to act on the request. The effectiveness and clarity of that process therefore become extremely important.

In my case, I chose Live Chat precisely because there was no account button/option available to me to simply close the account myself.

What makes the situation even more confusing is that Frumzi later relied on its Terms saying that account closure must be requested by email. I want Casino Guru to examine the actual historical Live Chat conversation before reaching any conclusion about what happened.

If Frumzi provides the transcript, I will provide it to the complaint mediator immediately.

Regarding your specific question: I personally did not see or use a dedicated self-exclusion function/button on the website. I used Live Chat to request account closure. I cannot confirm whether Frumzi internally treats a Live Chat request specifically mentioning gambling addiction as formal self-exclusion, because I did not use that wording and I do not want to claim something I cannot prove.

I hope this information is useful, particularly for other players who may be trying to understand what options are actually available when they want to stop gambling or close their account.

Thank you for the clarification. I would just add one point regarding self-exclusion, because I think there may be an assumption here that is worth clarifying.

A player should not generally have to guess how self-exclusion works at a particular casino. The available responsible-gambling tools and the procedure for requesting self-exclusion should be clearly explained in the casino's rules or other information provided to players, so that players know in advance what options are available and how they are expected to use them.

This also means that I would not automatically expect every casino to have a self-exclusion button, account limits, or the possibility to request self-exclusion through live chat. Different casinos can have different procedures. For example, a casino may require a player to send a request to a specific email address, and that can be the official way to request self-exclusion. What matters is that the casino clearly explains its available options and the procedure players are supposed to follow.

So, when you ask whether Frumzi provides self-exclusion through live chat, I wonder whether you may perhaps be expecting a particular set of responsible-gambling tools rather than referring to a procedure that Frumzi itself states it provides. Our review also indicates that the casino has rather limited responsible-gambling options, so I would not assume that a tool exists simply because it is available at other casinos maybe.

There is also one other point I would be interested in clarifying. I can see that you are from Greece, so is it possible that some of your expectations regarding player protection come from the standards you are accustomed to at casinos licensed for the Greek market? Frumzi does not hold a Greek licence, and we quite frequently see situations where players understandably expect the same level or type of protection from an internationally licensed casino as they would receive from an operator licensed in their own jurisdiction.

I am not saying that this is necessarily the case here, of course. I am only asking because it may help us understand where the expectations regarding the available self-exclusion tools come from.

And just to be clear, this does not prejudge your complaint in any way. The questions of what self-exclusion procedure Frumzi actually provides, how that procedure is described to players, what options were available to you, and how the casino handled your particular situation are all matters that can be examined as part of the ongoing investigation. I would therefore leave the final assessment of those points to the mediators.

Thank you for the response, but I think an important part of my situation is being overlooked.

I am not arguing that every casino must have a self-exclusion button or allow self-exclusion through Live Chat. My point is what actually happened when I contacted Frumzi Live Chat and requested that my account be closed.

As far as I could see, there was no direct account-closure option available through my account interface, so I contacted Live Chat.

My recollection is that the representative engaged with my closure request and asked why I wanted to close the account. I explained that there were not enough games and that I did not want to lose any more money.

Most importantly, I do not recall being told that Live Chat could not accept the request, that my request was invalid, or that I was required to send an email for the closure to take effect.

If Frumzi's position is now that closure could ONLY be requested by email, then this should be established from the evidence.

I specifically request the COMPLETE AND UNEDITED historical Live Chat transcript containing my closure request, including the full conversation before and after the request, together with the original date/time information.

I am requesting the complete transcript so that the conversation can be examined in its original context rather than through selected excerpts.

If Frumzi told me during that conversation:

"We cannot close your account through Live Chat; you must send an email,"

then the complete transcript should demonstrate that.

But if I requested closure, was asked why, explained that I did not want to lose any more money, and was not informed that an additional email was mandatory, that is also directly relevant.

Frumzi later rejected my reimbursement request by saying:

"we couldn't locate any requests for account closure sent to us via email."

But my position has always been that the request was made through LIVE CHAT, not email.

I am not claiming that I specifically used the words "self-exclusion" or "gambling addiction." I want the historical transcript to establish exactly what I said and how Frumzi responded.

After my earlier closure request, my account remained accessible and I subsequently lost approximately €1,800.

This is also why I believe Frumzi should preserve the original historical Live Chat record and associated timestamps/metadata while this complaint remains active.

There is another serious issue I need recorded.

This dispute and Frumzi's prolonged handling of it are causing me significant psychological distress and problems with my mental wellbeing.

I have experienced substantial stress, anger, emotional suffering, depression-related problems and deterioration of my mental wellbeing, and I have already informed Frumzi about this.

The continued handling is, from my perspective, making that distress worse.

I repeatedly email the departments Frumzi tells me to contact. I repeatedly request my records and substantive answers. I then contact Live Chat and am repeatedly redirected to the same email addresses I have already contacted.

I have specifically requested escalation to supervisors or relevant departments, yet I repeatedly receive generic responses, and several conversations have been closed while I was still requesting answers or escalation.

I have expressly informed Frumzi that this Live Chat handling itself is causing me additional psychological distress and aggravating an already serious situation.

I have separately reserved my rights concerning potential non-pecuniary harm. I am not asking Casino Guru to determine a legal damages claim here; I am documenting the impact and Frumzi's knowledge of it.

Regarding Greece, Frumzi has relied on clause 2.2 to place jurisdictional responsibility on me. However, I was also receiving Frumzi-related promotional communications concerning bonuses on my Greek mobile number, and a Greek-speaking person contacted me regarding my Frumzi account and discussed/offered me a €20 bonus.

I am not claiming this alone proves illegality. I have asked Frumzi to confirm who made these communications and preserve the relevant records.

My approximately €2,300 dispute remains unresolved.

I want this determined from evidence, not assumptions.

If Frumzi now maintains that I was clearly instructed during my original Live Chat conversation that email was mandatory for closure, I specifically request that Frumzi produce the COMPLETE, UNEDITED historical Live Chat transcript in its original context, with its original timestamps, so Casino Guru can independently see exactly what was said.

Frumzi still has not provided this evidence despite my repeated requests.

There is also another issue that I believe requires a clear explanation from Frumzi.

When I originally asked for my account to be closed through Live Chat, the account remained accessible.

However, after the dispute developed and I began making repeated complaints, requesting reimbursement, requesting my historical records, questioning the handling of the €500 withdrawal and requesting information concerning Frumzi's legal/licensing position, my account was eventually closed.

I want to be very precise: I am not claiming that I can prove Frumzi closed my account because I complained.

What I am saying is that the sequence of events raises an obvious question that Frumzi should answer:

Why did my account apparently remain open when I actually asked Live Chat to close it, yet it was subsequently closed after my complaints and dispute had escalated?

That simply does not make sense to me without further explanation.

I therefore request the exact date and time my account was ultimately closed, the internal reason/code recorded for that closure, who or which department initiated it, and the records showing what triggered the closure.

This should then be compared with the complete and unedited historical Live Chat transcript containing my earlier closure request.

I also want the timeline preserved clearly:

Earlier: I requested closure through Live Chat → according to my recollection, I was asked why → I explained, including that I did not want to lose any more money → the account nevertheless remained accessible.

Later: I raised the approximately €2,300 dispute and made repeated complaints and evidence requests → the account was subsequently closed.

Why was the later closure successfully implemented when my earlier request apparently was not?

If there is an innocent procedural explanation, Frumzi should be able to provide it together with the relevant records.

I am not asking Casino Guru to speculate about Frumzi's motive. I am asking for the evidence necessary to establish what actually happened.

This is another reason why the complete, unedited historical records and original timestamps are so important. The sequence should be independently verifiable from Frumzi's own records rather than reconstructed from selected information after the fact.

Thank you for the additional explanation. I think we may still be talking slightly past each other, so let me clarify what I meant.

I am not questioning whether you contacted Frumzi Live Chat or whether you asked for your account to be closed. If that is what happened, then of course the complete conversation may be very relevant to your complaint, especially when it comes to establishing exactly what you requested, what you explained to the representative, and what response or instructions you received.

At the same time, there are two separate questions here, which I think are important not to mix together.

The first is what actually happened in the Live Chat conversation. This is a matter for the complaint investigation, and the mediators can examine the available evidence and the full communication between you and the casino. In particular, it can be important to establish whether you were asking for ordinary account closure, whether your request was related to problematic gambling or self-exclusion, what exactly you told the representative, and how the representative understood and handled your request.

The second question is what procedure Frumzi actually had in place for account closure and self-exclusion at the time.

If a casino specifies in its Terms and Conditions or responsible-gambling information how an account should be closed or how self-exclusion should be requested, I would expect a player to follow that stated procedure. This is precisely so that players know in advance what they need to do and which options are actually available to them. It is not necessarily the same at every casino — some may provide an account function, some may accept a request through support, and some may require an email to a particular address.

So, if you decided to request account closure by whatever method you chose, I think it is also important to establish what Frumzi's own rules said about the procedure and whether you followed the procedure they had published. If you did follow it, or if you were directed by Frumzi's own representative to use another procedure, that is obviously relevant. If you did not follow the stated procedure, that may also be relevant when assessing what happened.

This is not something I would want to determine on the forum, though. It is part of the complaint itself, and the mediators can look at the relevant rules together with the actual communication and the casino's records.

I also think this is why the distinction between account closure and self-exclusion matters here. Simply asking for an account to be closed does not automatically mean that the request was a self-exclusion due to gambling addiction. At the same time, the reasons and wording used in the conversation can potentially make that distinction clearer.

You mentioned that you told the representative that there were not enough games and that you did not want to lose any more money. That is certainly relevant, but I would still prefer to see the actual conversation before interpreting what type of request this constituted.

So yes, I agree that the complete historical Live Chat record could be important evidence. I would just approach it together with Frumzi's published procedure for account closure/self-exclusion, rather than looking at the transcript in isolation.

And this is also why I would leave the final assessment to the complaint investigation. The important thing for me is that the full timeline, the applicable procedure, your actual request, and Frumzi's response are all considered together rather than making assumptions about any one of them.

Thank you for clarifying. However, I want to make my position very precise.

I am not asking anyone to assume that my request automatically constituted formal self-exclusion. My position is that I asked Frumzi through Live Chat to CLOSE MY ACCOUNT, the representative engaged with that request and asked why, and I explained, among other things, that I did not want to lose any more money.

If Frumzi's published procedure at that time required email, then the investigation should establish not only what the Terms said, but also what Frumzi's representative actually told me when I directly requested closure through Live Chat.

If I requested closure and the representative discussed my reasons but did NOT clearly tell me:

"We cannot process this through Live Chat; you must email us and your account will remain open otherwise,"

then I believe that is highly relevant to how my request was handled.

This is precisely why I repeatedly request the COMPLETE AND UNEDITED historical Live Chat transcript, in its original context and with the original timestamps/date information.

The complete conversation should establish:

• exactly what I requested;

• what reasons I gave;

• what the representative asked me;

• what instructions I received; and

• whether I was explicitly informed that email was mandatory.

If Frumzi maintains that I was clearly instructed to email and failed to do so, then the complete and unedited transcript should demonstrate that.

I also request the version of Frumzi's Terms/account-closure and responsible-gambling procedure that was actually in force on the date of my request, rather than relying only on wording available now.

There is another major issue requiring explanation.

When I originally requested closure through Live Chat, my account remained accessible, and I subsequently continued gambling and lost approximately €1,800.

However, later, after my approximately €2,300 dispute developed and I began repeatedly complaining, requesting records, questioning the €500 withdrawal handling and requesting other information, my account was subsequently closed.

I am NOT claiming that I can prove Frumzi closed my account because I complained.

I am asking a straightforward question:

Why did my account remain accessible when I actually requested closure, but was successfully closed later after my dispute and complaints had escalated?

I therefore request the exact date/time of the eventual closure, the internal reason/code for that closure, which department initiated it, and the records showing what triggered it.

That later closure should be compared with the complete historical record of my earlier closure request.

There is also a serious personal impact that I do not want overlooked.

I have repeatedly informed Frumzi that this prolonged dispute is causing me significant psychological distress, stress, emotional suffering, depression-related problems and deterioration of my mental wellbeing.

I have also expressly informed Frumzi that the continuing handling of the case itself is causing me additional psychological distress and making the situation worse.

I repeatedly contact the departments Frumzi tells me to contact, request records and substantive answers, and then Live Chat repeatedly redirects me to the same departments I have already contacted. Several Live Chat conversations have also been closed while I was requesting escalation or answers.

I have preserved those communications and have separately reserved my rights regarding potential non-pecuniary harm.

Today, a Frumzi Live Chat representative also expressly told me:

"Your request has been forwarded to the relevant department and we are currently awaiting their response."

My approximately €2,300 dispute remains active, contested and unresolved, and I continue to request reimbursement and the outstanding records.

I want this matter determined from original evidence, not assumptions from either side.

Therefore, I again request that Frumzi preserve and produce the COMPLETE AND UNEDITED historical Live Chat conversation containing my original account-closure request, with its original timestamps and full context, together with the Terms/procedure actually applicable on that date.

If the evidence shows that Frumzi clearly told me Live Chat was insufficient and email was mandatory, the complete record will show it.

If it does not, that fact is equally important.

Thank you for your extensive response.

I think it would be best to leave the practical assessment of these points to the complaint mediators at this stage. We are already getting quite far ahead of the actual complaint here, and I believe it would be more useful to narrow down the points that may ultimately need to be considered there rather than trying to reach conclusions on the forum.

It is not that we cannot discuss the matter here.

However, the outcome of these particular questions is going to depend heavily on the actual content of the historical chats and other communication you are able to provide, as well as on the procedure that Frumzi had in place at the relevant time.

There is also an important distinction to keep in mind from the complaint perspective. There are requests where a player clearly states that they are experiencing gambling-related harm and are asking to self-exclude, and there are ordinary account-closure requests where the player does not make such a request. The exact wording and context of the communication can therefore be quite important.

When you say that you are not asking anyone to assume that your original request automatically constituted formal self-exclusion, I think this is precisely why the complete conversation will be important. Saying that you wanted to close the account and explaining that you did not want to lose more money may certainly be relevant context, but it does not by itself tell us how the request was understood by the representative or what procedure should have followed.

Similarly, whether you were clearly instructed to use a particular channel, whether the representative understood your request as ordinary account closure or something related to responsible gambling, and what Frumzi's applicable procedure was at the time are all matters that are better assessed from the actual evidence rather than inferred from the later sequence of events.

I therefore suggest that we wait for the mediator to work with the facts and documentation available to them rather than assuming more here. If the complete historical communication supports your interpretation, that can of course be taken into account in the complaint.

Hej, jeg vil gerne indgive en klage igen vedrørende Frumzi Casino! Hvordan kan jeg gøre dette? Mange tak!

I’d say the process should be the same as when you opened your previous complaint about this casino, which was already resolved.

Which part do you specifically need help with? Feel free to tell me which step isn’t working for you, or where exactly you’re getting stuck.

I’d also like to know what you want to submit the new complaint about. Are you having another problem with a withdrawal?

Problemet er igen den manglende betaling! Penge tilbageholdt siden 17. august, intet svar! Jeg kan ikke åbne guru-klagesiden, fordi der står, at jeg har en klage til frum8! Ja, den er allerede blevet lukket, fordi den er begyndt at betale! Og nu er der undskyldninger igen, hvilket forsinker processen!

Alright, there may be one more option.

You could try contacting Mirka, who handled your previous complaint, and ask whether that complaint can be reopened. I think the best way would be to email her directly and explain that you’d like to reopen the case.

She can then let you know whether the previous complaint can be reopened or whether you should submit a new one instead.

Could you try that, please?