Hilsen alle,
Meget af det, der er skrevet nedenfor, er en tankeøvelse. Hvis du vil springe dette over og komme til casinoets beslutning, er det i bunden af denne (ret lange) gennemgang. 🙂
Casino.guru og deres kodeks for fair gambling er en fantastisk ressource, historisk set er det meget sjældent, at vi som organisation er uenige med dem om håndteringen af spillere.
I dette tilfælde er vi uenige på ét centralt punkt:
Casino.guru mener, at vi ikke bør "have lov" til at tilbyde bonusser med regler, der går ud over det, vi mekanisk kan kontrollere. At mens en bonus er aktiv, skal bonusreglerne håndhæves fysisk og strengt af casinoets mekanikere.
Fra vores side ville dette gøre det umuligt at tilbyde den bonusværdi, som vores spillere elsker (og er blevet vant til).
Det åbner også døren (for spilleren, casino.guru osv.) til at tage enhver del af vilkårene og betingelserne (for ethvert casino) og ignorere (eller omskrive) dem, som de finder passende.
Vi er ikke børn her, og vi føler, at det er en "net nanny"-mentalitet. Hvis en spiller ikke er ansvarlig for eller forpligtet til de vilkår, de spiller under (og mekanisk skal forhindres i at bryde dem), er de så ansvarlige nok til at spille i første omgang?
Desværre findes der åger, vildledning og misbrug af spillere. Der findes ondsindede aktører i enhver branche, men ingen af disse udtryk er relevante her, og casinoet har gjort alt, hvad der står i dets magt, for at sikre, at alle involverede parter er blevet korrekt informeret og behandlet retfærdigt.
Efter et møde med Punts ledelse er vi enige om, at det er umuligt at være fleksible i denne situation.
(Som casino.guru har nævnt) Der er også betydelige indikatorer for, at spilleren faktisk kendte de vilkår, de spillede under, og forsøgte at "omgå" dem gennem forskellige handlinger fra deres side, men på dette punkt afviger vi fra emnet ...
Konklusionen her er de tre punkter nedenfor:
- Casinoet opererer under offentliggjorte vilkår og betingelser og har ret til at diktere disse vilkår, ligesom spilleren har ret til at afvise (ved at vælge ikke at deltage).
- På intet tidspunkt blev spilleren vildledt, eller vigtige oplysninger blev tilbageholdt.
- Efter afvisning af den anmodede udbetaling accepterede spilleren casinoets afgørelse. Accept af kontantindbetalingen (og derefter omsætning af den som kontanter) udgør en anden og bindende kontrakt mellem spilleren og casinoet og eliminerer ethvert ansvar fra casinoets side for den første indbetaling/spilsession (som inkluderede indbetalingskuponen og det pågældende "ikke-tilladte" spil).
For os er det nummer 3, der stopper denne dialog og lader emnet om spiller versus casinoansvar (vedrørende bonusregler) ligge til en anden dag.
De indbetalte midler, der resulterede i en gevinst, eksisterer ikke længere, uanset gevinstens gyldighed.
Ved at acceptere casinoets afgørelse og modtage pengene tilbage (og spille dem med chancen for at vinde), eksisterer den hændelse, der er kilden til denne klage, ikke længere. Teknisk set blev der indgået en sekundær "kontrakt" mellem casinoet og spilleren, som annullerer den oprindelige aftale.
Etisk set, hvis vi var ansvarlige for at udbetale en eventuel gevinst på de genindbetalte kontantbeløb, som spilleren accepterede (og derefter spillede frit og tabte), bliver dette et tilfælde af "dobbelt risiko" for casinoet. Hvis begge er gyldige, gevinst eller tab for spilleren, taber vi begge veje.
Tidspunktet for ovenstående "tankeøvelse" var før pengene blev accepteret og/eller spillet tilbage i systemet. Spilleren accepterede bevidst pengene, spillede dem, og der var ingen resulterende gevinst.
Efter dette valgte spilleren at indgive en klage.
I denne situation er det klart for os, at casinoet har opfyldt sin forpligtelse (både etisk og i henhold til casinoets vilkår) over for spilleren, og vi anser grundlaget for denne klage for ugyldigt.
Vi forstår, at klageren og casino.guru muligvis ikke er enige i denne beslutning, men på trods af enhver antydning af andet anser vi vores forpligtelse over for spilleren for hellig. Hvert spin kan ændre skæbnen. Hvis spilleren havde vundet 1000 gange den pågældende afviste udbetaling, mens han spillede med rene kontanter og uden regler, ville spilleren have fået betaling.
Med den største respekt for alle involverede parter valgte spilleren villigt at tage en chance, og det betalte sig ikke. Hvis det havde betalt sig, ville denne klage ikke eksistere.
På den baggrund afviser vi enhver yderligere forpligtelse.
Forhåbentlig afklarer dette tingene for alle.
De bedste ønsker,
Nick og Punt ZA
Greetings all,
Much of what is written below is a thought exercise, if you would like to skip this and get to the decision on the part of the casino it is at the bottom of this (rather lengthy) screed. 🙂
Casino.guru and their fair gambling codex are an amazing resource, historically it is very rare for us as an organization to disagree with them on the handling of players.
In this case we differ in one key aspect:
Casino.guru feels we should not be "allowed" to offer bonuses with rules beyond the spectrum of what we can mechanically control. That while a bonus is active the bonus rules must be physically and rigidly enforced by the mechanics of the casino.
On our end this would make it impossible to offer the bonus value our players love (and have come to expect).
It also opens the door (for the player, casino.guru, et al) to take any portion of the terms and conditions (of any casino) and ignore (or re-write) them however they feel is suitable.
We are not children here, and we feel this is a "net nanny" mentality. If a player is not responsible for or beholden to the terms they are playing under (and must be mechanically prevented from breaking them) are they responsible enough to play in the first place?
Unfortunately, usury, misdirection, and abuse of players do exist. There are bad actors in any industry, but none of those terms are applicable here and the casino has done everything within its power to assure that all parties involved have been properly informed and treated fairly.
After meeting with Punt management we agree that it is impossible to be flexible in this situation.
(As casino.guru has mentioned) There are also significant indicators that the player actually knew the terms they were playing under and tried to "work around" them through various actions on their part but on this point we digress…
The bottom line here are the three points below:
- The casino operates under published terms and conditions and has the right to dictate those terms, just as the player has the right of refusal (by choosing not to participate).
- At no point was the player misdirected or important information withheld.
- After denial of the requested withdrawal the player accepted the ruling of the casino. Accepting the cash deposit funds (then playing them as cash) constitutes a 2nd and binding contract between the player and the casino and eliminates any liability on the part of the casino for the initial deposit/play session (which included the deposit coupon and "non-allowed" game play in question).
For us, it is number 3 that stops this dialogue and leaves the subject of player versus casino responsibility (regarding bonus rules) for another day.
The deposited funds that resulted in a win, regardless of the validity of that win no longer exist.
In accepting the ruling of the casino and receiving the funds back (and playing them with the chance to win) the incident which is the source of this complaint no longer exists. Technically speaking, a secondary "contract" between the casino and the player was entered which cancels the initial agreement.
Ethically speaking, if we were responsible for paying any resulting win on the re-deposited cash funds accepted by the player (then freely played and lost), this becomes a case of "double jeopardy" for the casino. If both are valid, win or loss for the player, we lose either way.
The time for the "thought exercise" above was before that money was accepted and/or played back into the system. The player knowingly accepted the funds, played them, and there was no resulting win.
After this, the player chose to file a complaint.
In this situation it is clear to us that the casino has fulfilled its obligation (both ethically and per the terms of the casino) to the player and we consider the basis for this complaint to be null and void.
We understand that the complainant and casino.guru may not agree with this decision, but despite any insinuation otherwise we hold our obligation to the player sacred. Every spin can change fortunes. Had the player won 1000x the denied withdrawal in question while playing with pure cash and zero rules, the player would have gotten paid.
With utmost respect to all parties involved, the player willingly chose to take a chance and it didn't pay off. If it had paid off this complaint would not exist.
On those grounds, we deny any further obligation.
Hopefully this clarifies things for everyone.
Best wishes,
Nick and Punt ZA
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